hervard

For a while, I couldn't find any actual quotes of what Summers said. All I could find in the news were angry quotes from angry feminists about what he said.
Well, I found the transcript of his talk, and it's here.
Reading Summers' address, one finds (and I'll use understatement), very little of the "misogyny," "bigotry" and other demonizing sorts of words attributed to Summers and his remarks. There are a number of things I wanted to try to comment on, but I find that Summers did a better job than I expected of anticipating and heading off the questions I would raise. So, please, just read it for yourself.
What I do find... annoying, and a bit depressing, is how his remarks have been received, and I wonder why people would get so upset over a series of questions that were raised with the goal of better understanding how it is that there are much fewer women than men in the upper eschelons of science. Presumably if you want to change the status quo, it helps to have a right understanding (as opposed to politically correct, agenda-based ideology) of the causes for the status quo...? (Am I off base here?)
The best way I'm able to understand the bad press is that Summers was in fact asking questions, which is a huge offense whenever you're in an environment with a rigorously enforced ideology... These were questions which different groups of people regard as dangerous. Dangerous how? Well, one group of people probably simply misunderstood his remarks entirely, and thought he was speaking normatively rather than descriptively (which he was very careful to deny repeatedly) --- i.e. that we was saying women "should" want to drop out of work to raise families, or some such. Another group may have misunderstood and thought he was primarily addressing innate abilities in science, which he said he wasn't. That would be offensive to...probably most of us. Another group missed the point entirely, thinking that the small number of women who have made great sacrifices for their careers to do "high-powered work" somehow refutes Summer's remarks about what most women seem to be likely to want to do. Truly, to dimish the great efforts of these achieving women would be to do them and all of us a great disservice.
Okay, all of these are sufficient excuses for public uproar (especially if "spun" properly), but I think there's more to it, like so:
He was speaking at the "NBER Conference on Diversifying the Science & Engineering Workforce." People at such a conference are committed to finding ways to change the structure of the workplace to encourage diversity ("diversity" meaning people of various genders, sexual-orientations and ethnicities all espousing the same, approved, secular-humanist thought), and Summers was in a way attacking their whole program. I don't know that he realized this --- He may have just thought he was trying to help people have a proper perspective on the roles of "true descrimination" and other impediments to diversity vs. other factors which may not necessarily be bad or in need of changing (or indeed capable of being changed). ...and of course everybody at the conference knows that women and men are so equal (or no I'm sorry how politically incorrect, I mean to say that women are better than men but nevertheless deserve special dispensations because they're women) that descrimination is the only explanation for lack of representation... But by raising the question that maybe not as many women as men want to work 80 hours a week, etc., he may have been pointing out something that diversification efforts may be powerless to change, i.e. that the whole diversity-terraforming program may be limited in what it can achieve.
Yea, public uproar at that point. If I'm in the diversity-making business, then I'm thinking "this guy speaking is obviously a bigot or mysoginist or...gimme some other word...Nazi, whatever, because he's threating not just my job, but the goal that I'm devoting my life to. Get him out of here, and get him out of Harvard."
Sorry if you're offended by my questions and observations. But don't try to fire me from the blog.
-Scott
P.S.- Okay, I left out one other "dangerous" aspect of Summers' remarks, and it's the whole slippery-slope thing: What's to stop people from using a similar line of reasoning to "explain away" underrepresentation of ethnic groups? He does dare to point out that white males are "very substantially" underrepresented in the National Basketball Association...
13 Comments:
Just to get this out of the way:
Scott, I'm not going to bother responding rationally to what you actually said, but instead I'll move straight to ad-hominem attacks based on my own inferences which are colored by my past dealings with other people besides you: You are a bigot, and a mysogynist, and a...gimme another word... Nazi. How dare you question the great utopian vision of a free liberal society? You and your kind want us to return to the dark ages, don't you? You're all the same to me. We will crush you, we will force freedom on you... (wait, I sound like George W. Bush!)
The Blue States will rise again!!!
Uh-huh...Okay. Thank you.
You know, I'm not really a political person... And I'm not necesarrily fond of the words "conservative" or "traditionalist" either. So... Let's get back on topic, shall we?
Next?
anonymous, sincerely, i would hope to listen to your heart in this matter, and actually dialogue in the utopian liberal marketplace of ideas... yet, already from the onset you admittedly derail discussion by giving way to ad-hominem - one of the most basic logical fallacies, and errant rhetorical devices (ref. Copi's Introduction to Symbolic Logic)...
please, you are obviously far more intelligent than this, and in so doing only actually prove the point Dr. Hawley seems to be making, that academic realm is permeated by political correct spin artists, (and i dare say pseudo-intellectuals and sophists) rather than actual authentic truth seekers... furthermore, it sounds as though you have not listened to what Hawley was attempting to say - a veritable rudeness indicative of the person you accuse Hawley of being...let me just say that this makes you all the more subject to your own critique than him, and rather than rising above you sink below what you disagree with -- and this is far unbefitting someone so clearly as intelligent as yourself.... WHAT IS GOOD ABOUT HOW YOU ATTACK, MITIGATE, INSULT HAWLEY? IS THIS NOT WORSE THAN THE ONE YOU MAKE HIM OUT TO BE? SERIOUSLY, HOW ARE SUCH ACTIONS GOOD AT ALL, OR ANY DIFFERENT THAN WHAT YOU ACCUSE HIM OF DOING?
YET, ONE MIGHT WONDER IF POSSIBLY YOU ARE AN ARTIST OF SARCASM, AND THEN IF SO I MIGHT APPLAUD YOUR INCISIVE USE IT IN MOCKING THE VERY IDEOLOGIES IT SEEMS HAWLEY MAKES OUT TO BE IN ERR.
GETTING BACK ON TOPIC, H0WEVER assuming we want equality and freedom, how can we have true equlaity and freedom if we do not recognize honest, incontrivertable differences... let us say there is some peoples group, the wacky-wacky, and are demonstrably shown to be genetically less cognitively and emotionaly equipped to handle the stressors of an academic enviroment as that enviroment currently exists - having been a peoples that developed, say, in isolation and from the currently discovered "hobbit" genus (ref. cnn news science section for this discovery of an ancient evolutionarily - ancestral peoples)....isn't if more fair we recognize the differences, and alter the enviroment to give them the opportunities inalienable to them as peoples of a, how did you put it, "great utopian vision of a free liberal society"?
sex, religion, politics ... three things momma told me never to talk about ...
i've noticed that there has been sneaking into the news, however, the one issue that seems to really divide the conservative right-wingers : illegal immigration...this issue strikes me as a different sort of issue, different than the Iraq war, different than social security... what is particularly interesting for looking at ths issue is how/why it is so different...
what does this have to do with harvard, women in academia, ect? well, i postulate that the reason mc cloud stands alone and unconfronted is that the issue, well, is not really an issue, ontologically speaking... this is to say, simply, it does not matter to us "existentially" on the deepest level of universal human experience ... the truth invovled in the "herverd" issue is, at most, a descriptive truth, a matter of fact and what is accurate fact... only those issues that, well, deal with the human heart ... issues, dare we say, religion addresses as its core topics - human hearts and the human condition in light of human interactions relative to an absolute moral law-giver/creator...
i am not suggesting the question is one of morality-right-and-wrong, but maybe morality-good-and-bad ... but i am not saying the question of borders and immigration is one to be solved by religion. what i do suggest is that such issues as immigration (one people group imposing on the areas of another) are questions of human condition and relationships, and such questions are inherently religious...
naturally in some people minds - people who do not understand spirituality, and know only rules-based religion - such issues mean conflict with selfish, personal interest. yeah, folks are gonna get on about these questions, and hate the obvious conclusion it reveals truth (that has to be dealt with) of their human condition ...
why does this issue really divide us as a peoples? should it suprise us that the ugly human heart that drives genocide, and raping and pilaging in the process, segregating other people groups is at the heart of this issue hear for us - if we are honest withourselves... that we are no better than they, capable of the same darkness?
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Well, many people seem to think (including some that were present at Summers' lecture and asked questions) that ample evidence already exists proving Summers' hypotheses wrong, and his ignorance of such evidence demonstrated a kind of incompetancy. His answers to the questions were not exactly impressive, were they?
Dear Wyld Stalyns....
Party on, etc.
So, this issue of Summers' remarks that I wrote a whole blog entry about, that many people are up in arms about, that some people are even calling for Summers' removal over is a non-issue, and why don't we all instead talk about illegal immigration while trying to wax philosophical about the human condition?
I might feel insulted if I weren't so bewildered by your comment (/attempted-threadjack).
(Jedi hand-wave) Move along, this is not the blog you're looking for...
Bill & Ted,
Sorry, I should have responded to you first rather than that copycat artist.
Talking about different ethnic groups being not completely equal kind of went out of style a while back. I think Summer's disction of "descriptive" rather than "normative" can be really helpful. You wouldn't want to say that your race of hobbit-people can't or shouldn't excel in any area of human endeavor, but you could (ought to be able to?) say that, one reason there aren't statisically as many hobbit adventurers is that hobbits are statistically much less likely than other groups to be interested in adventuring ... Perhaps they're (again, generally speaking) more interested in baking bread and smoking longbottom leaf. Doesn't mean that a few hobbits won't surprise you by actually being adventurers that decide the fate of the/Middle Earth. ...Does that make you a racist? God I hope not.
terry,
Wow! You...you... you're my new friend! (/adversary?) Your post was totally on-topic! THANK you for posting!
Yea, Summers didn't seem to have much clue as to how to answer his critics did he? Ahhh....your insight is refreshing: charges of professional incompetance are perfectly palatable to me.
I wish his "response"/hasty retreat message had actually contained some more content either butressing or refuting his hypothesis (instead of just profuse apology and "Go Harvard"...).
Still, can you point me to actual evidence that shows that women --- statistically and not just very small percentage --- are just as likely as men to not care about things like family, etc. and pursue intense careers?
you missed the point... i was suggesting this issue is an issue that does not generate a sort of discussion other than empassioned rhetoric, the kind you intially descried ... perhaps you should listen (read) a little more closely ... in so doing i questioned why this was so, and made an observation about the nature of questions of this type...implicitly suggesting that people simply invovle themselves only in selfish motivation ... thus further criticizing, i would think, the very academic intellectual inauthenticity you do...
it is interesting you can be so gracious with an obviously antagonistic commentator as anonymous, yet can be so ungracious to me ... whah! you don't want your li'l thread stolen... it wasn't, jerk...moron, if you can't be nice to me who is obviously not as smart as your illustrious ass, no wonder you often wonder why no one is reading your blog - it is not safe to post on if you are not as smart or don't want to not touch li'l scott's playtoy ...
Some one should reign in "wyld stallyons" and seel them off to the dog-food company, "Pur-wanna-bitch-ina".
Anyway, "hobbit" is actually not a Tokein reference, btw...
But, the point still remains : despite my passe but hypothetical only example, isn't it still fair, if that situation exists, to change the system? thus we would want to be as accurate as possible in the descriptive statements made pertaining to gender differences ... but, this may be a mute point if what terry says is true...
Summers was not claiming to be completely knowledgeable nor thorougly researched in his speech, hence his many apologies and references to "hypothesises" not absolute truths. But why should he be criticized for diversifying the discussion of the conference? He wasn't trying to attack their ideology, but trying to provoke geniune discussion.
Sometimes, what makes people most mad is when they dogmatically believe something, and that they are right and noble...and then their wrongness is brought to light.
Whatever the case--for me, his speech raises other questions even more hideously ugly than he raised...
I think it is a good point he makes that many American married women with children CHOOSE not to have such a "high powered/prestigious" position as a tenured position in science or engineering, but instead choose the unnamed... And why is this so horrible? Why is it demeaning to choose to pour into a small number of lives as wife and mother? Why is it less honorable to CHOOSE to build a home and give a good childhood to your children? Too old fashioned...too commonplace...or what? Why is it more desired to hand off the raising of your kids to someone else (or better yet not to have any) and pursue an honored and prestigious job instead?
Maybe mothers choose not to have jobs where they must work 80 hours a week, because they already are working all the time (when do they get a paid vacation from their kids?) Maybe they choose not to have a job where they are always thinking about that job, because so much continuous thought is demanded by caring for a family...
I can say as a female I have felt the pressure to pursue math or science or engineering. I have felt the pressure to choose to do "high powered/prestigious" work. So much so that at one point, I depised being a girl and thought how much better if I was a boy, and could pursue such things with more ease?
Why in efforts to diversify one specific field must the current diversity of men / women (inherent or otherwise) be diminished?
Sound-bite-commentary from user "ZAZ" on fark.com:
"President of Harvard says that women think differently than men. Women in the audience get hysterical and have to leave the room to go cry or scream. QED."
-Another loyal Farker.
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